The sadness of the state of man
posted by: fishman
March 27, 2008
8:58 pm
I hear about all of the catholics who are voting for democrates and I just don't understand how anyone , in good faith , or good consious could vote to continue the genicide. I know the only alternative is voting for continued war, but if we were in nazi germany and voting for a new leader and the choice was between one man who promised to shut down the concentration camps but continue the war and another who promised to stop the war but to intesify the killing of the Jews, who should you vote for, shouldn't be too hard.
What I don't get is why we don't here more from the bishops.
Why there have still been no excommunication of pro-choice 'catholic' politicians.
Why are SO many catholics simply outright disobedient and why are do those who should be obeyed do nothing about it.
It just proves the church and the world are really in God's hands , if they weren't the church would already have been destroyed.
posted by: AlvinaL
March 27, 2008
11:28 pm
fishman,
It’s baffling when Catholic voters continue to support a public figure who supports abortion. The average voters in our country watch a lot of television. They learn insolence and self-centeredness. They’re acting out of ignorance and a poorly formed conscience. Their faith is weak.
Our local bishop has the courage to defend the unborn publicly but I can understand your frustration if you live in a diocese where the bishop is silent on abortion.
You ask why pro-choice 'Catholic' politicians aren’t excommunicated. I believe that these politicians excommunicate themselves and seem to be proud of it. Leave the judging to God. The secular media would have a heyday over a publicly excommunicated pro-choice politician. We'd hear it described on TV every 15 minutes…forever. The secular media would scandalize the Catholic hierarchy and the excommunicated politician would become a “ media martyr.”
posted by: MREINER16
March 28, 2008
5:46 am
Unfortunately, I must say that the majority of those Catholic's who support pro-abortion candidates are themselves pro-abortion. Now I'm not sure if they have just taken the media hype that it is a choice or if they consciously are disobeying the 5th comandment. I think that the so called Catholic vote is fairly watered down between the practicing and non-practicing Catholics. The latter group appears to select the teaching of the Church that they like and simply discard the rest. I feel fairly certain that those who are active Church goers would not support any of the democrat candidates. I think the bishops should not publically support or denounce any candidates, but should make sure that all Catholics, including those not actively practicing understand what the Church teaches and further understand that if they choose the option of a candidate that opposes the teaching of the Church on the fundamental question of respect for life then it is there consequence and no one elses. The bishop's main repsonsibility is to pass on the faith and teaching of the Church and I think some need to communicate this better than they have so far. I hope and pray that the Holy Father himself will teach all of us some of these basics during his upcomuing trip to the US.
posted by: David T Garrison
March 28, 2008
7:46 am
...If progress, in order to be progress, needs moral growth on the part of humanity, then the reason behind action and capacity for action is likewise urgently in need of integration through reason's openness to the saving forces of faith, to the differentiation between good and evil. Only thus does reason become truly human. It becomes human only if it is capable of directing the will along the right path, and it is capable of this only if it looks beyond itself. Otherwise, man's situation, in view of the imbalance between his material capacity and the lack of judgement in his heart, becomes a threat for him and for creation. Thus where freedom is concerned, we must remember that human freedom always requires a convergence of various freedoms. Yet this convergence cannot succeed unless it is determined by a common intrinsic criterion of measurement, which is the foundation and goal of our freedom. Let us put it very simply: man needs God, otherwise he remains without hope. Given the developments of the modern age, the quotation from Saint Paul with which I began (Eph 2:12) proves to be thoroughly realistic and plainly true. There is no doubt, therefore, that a “Kingdom of God” accomplished without God—a kingdom therefore of man alone—inevitably ends up as the “perverse end” of all things as described by Kant: we have seen it, and we see it over and over again. Yet neither is there any doubt that God truly enters into human affairs only when, rather than being present merely in our thinking, he himself comes towards us and speaks to us. Reason therefore needs faith if it is to be completely itself: reason and faith need one another in order to fulfil their true nature and their mission. Spe Salvi 23
No one with good faith or a good conscience could vote directly for the slaughter of the innocents. To be a baptised catholic, confirmed or not, does not automatically place oneself in the presence of God. A properly formed conscience is the key for we should always follow our conscience-even a malformed one{St Augustine}.
from the Catechism:
1790. A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were to deliberately act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.
1791. This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.
1792. Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement of one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.
The Holy Spirit, the Great Paraclete, can not dwell with any soul that is obstinate or has heardened their heart and closed their ears to the cries of the weak.
However, the indelible mark placed in the heart of everyone continues to call out in the darkness which is our world today. We on CE are all proof of the conversion which the Giver of Life carries out in cooperation with a humbled heart.
So we fight. Our sword is the Crucifix and our shield is the Rosary. Our spiritual director is our pope.
May we all be inclined to pray more.
In Christ,
There, now you have a couple of little Abe Lincolns from me... Remember, the Sun is always shining!
posted by: MattyMattyChooChoo
March 28, 2008
8:36 am
I hate to break it to you, fishman, but some of the priests and bishops are Democrats too. I know this for a fact.
I worked in database management for a political campaign last year, and was compiling data on Democrat voters. It took two hand to count all the priests (including the bishop) in the diocese who were registered Democrats. (Only one handful of registered Republicans.) Now the data only included first and last names, no titles, so I couldn't count all of the instances of "Fr." in the list, just priests I heard of. So it is very likely that there could have been more priests who were registered Democrats (and Republicans).
posted by: AlvinaL
March 28, 2008
2:05 pm
A priest or bishop should not endorse or denounce from the church pulpit any political candidate. All priests and bishops have a responsibility to make clear the Church teaching on abortion (and Humanae Vitae.)
Even though the Catholic clergyman is a registered Democrat doesn’t mean that we should conclude that the priest or bishop will vote for a politician who supports abortion. We all vote secret ballot. A community can really persecute a Catholic clergyman who changes from Democrat party to another party. It’s serious business.
posted by: MREINER16
March 28, 2008
4:40 pm
AlvinaL- I agree that just because a priest is a registered Democrat that does not mean he votes Democratic. However, I still question how a priest or for that matter any Catholic can in good conscience register as a Democrat while their party platform specifically calls for abortion rights. It is a key part of their party policies and it is in direct conflict with the teaching of the Church. I would therefore say, it would be better to simply not register or register as an Independent.
posted by: lpioch
March 28, 2008
8:59 pm
mreiner,
I'm not so sure. How will the party platform change if it isn't called for by the registered Democrats? They're not going to listen to Independents or Republicans.
I'm not saying this is the "intentional plan" of all Catholic registered Democrats. But I can see how it would be more effective to call for change if one is within that party.
posted by: fishman
March 28, 2008
9:32 pm
I was a registered democrat specifically for the purpose of trying to change the party platform. besides at the local level there are plenty a fair number of pro-life democrats. They just will never make it anywhere in the current party beyond state government until it changes.
I don't nessarily agree with this "A priest or bishop should not endorse or denounce from the church pulpit any political candidate."
Both Priest and bishops have an obligation to denounce heretics, and murders and enemies of the truth regardless of weather or not they are political cadidates.
John the baptist most certainly denounced very high powered politicians who were members of his own religion ( Herod) and Jesus had no problem with that.
posted by: MattyMattyChooChoo
March 28, 2008
9:38 pm
MREINER,
You forgot the gay marriage support as well.
lpioch, some things aren't worth trying to change from the inside. The Democrat party was founded on keeping slavery alive, and they have succeeded. The lie to women and tell them they need the Dems to keep abortion legal for their own good. The Dems take as many rights away from parents as possible. They tell blacks they can't succeed without handouts.
I haven't talked with a single Democrat priest who was not a dissenter on at least a couple of Church teachings. Not to say they're all that way, but I'd bet that a majority are.
Trying to save the Democrat party from the inside out is like getting a job as a bartender at a strip club so you can witness to the dancers and customers.
posted by: noelfitz
March 28, 2008
10:11 pm
I think we have had this discussion before when we discussed if it is a mortal sin to vote.
From this present discussion (with the possible exception of Lpioch) there seem to be agreement that it is a sin to vote Democrat.
I would suggest it is a sin to vote Republican, as that means voting for those who advocate an immoral war.
As has been stated:
No one with good faith or a good conscience could vote directly for the slaughter of the innocents.
Thus here in this roundtable it is recommended that Catholics do not vote.
For Catholics to withdraw from the public square would be disasterous. Any chance of influencing society would be thrown away.
God bless,
NoelFitz.
_________________________________________________
In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
_________________________________________________
posted by: fishman
March 28, 2008
11:48 pm
noelfitz - my evalution is very similar but not exactly identical to yours ( as I stated rather colorfully in the origin post.)
It is not a matter of a good vs a bad candidate this election. It is a matter
of one who supports the destruction of marriage and the family as well as killing appx 27000 people ( by abortion) the next year and increasing that number if possible as well as ensuring that slaughter continues indefinately.
Vs. one who is consider a "hawk" in support of a miltary action that may kill as many as 7000 people ( many of whom can defend themselves and are killed while the U.S. is actively trying to prevent them from dieing) over the next year. he also does NOT propose to continue that action indefinately. Also, it is unkown if removal of the U.S. presence will cause greater or lesser death in the area , and certainly possilble that the wrong kind of removable would cause greater death.
Certainly both are horrid candidates. Obviously the latter is less horrid.
Catholics with the right to vote have an obligation to try and bring about the best situation possible , but what needs to be done should be clear.
Regardless of politics or not I just don't understand why more isn't done to take highly public wayward catholics to task over church teachings.
Not just the likes of John kerry various kennedys and other politicians, don't forget Malinda Gates ( head of the gates foundation promoting abortion laws and passing out condoms in south america). What about catholic corporate leaders or radio commentators. The bishops should hold all catholics responsible for their words and actions when they represent themselves as catholics and then openly teach that there are no consequences to ignoring church teaching.
I truely believe if they did many of these people would repent and many souls would be saved. But human beings ... are ... imperfect at best ... and I am no better.
posted by: AlvinaL
March 29, 2008
11:33 am
fishman
I believe it’s unlawful to promote any political candidate from the church pulpit. The IRS could become involved in regard to tax exemption, etc. It's important for the clergy teach the faithful about abortion without mentioning the names of political candidates. Whether from the pulpit or in the classroom, endorsing or denouncing a political candidate seems to cause division within the church.
posted by: AlvinaL
March 29, 2008
3:20 pm
MREINER,
You asked how any Catholic in good conscience can register as a Democrat while the party platform specifically calls for abortion rights. Many older people registered as Democrats before the Democrats approved abortion rights in their platform. It's a shame that some older people are more concerned about free health care for themselves.
There's an advantage to remaining a Democratic registered voter. Currently, registered Democrats in our state are circulating a petition for the Democratic Party to remove abortion rights from the platform. These grassroots voters are hoping that is will send strong message to the Presidential Candidate and officers of the Democratic Party such as Howard Dean. It is my hope that there a similar movement in other states.
posted by: MattyMattyChooChoo
March 29, 2008
6:35 pm
The intentional kiling of unborn babies is morally incomparable with the unintentional killing of innocent civilians in a war zone.
We went to war in good faith, WMDs had been moved out of Iraq before we got there. We didn't go to war to kill civilians, we went to try and defeat a terrorist regime. (If there weren't ever any WMDs, why wouldn't Saddam let U.N. weapons inspectors into his facilities?)
Don't even play that game that the two are the same.
In our two party system, onoe party is evil, the other stupid. I will concede that the Republicans are stupid, but the Democrats are evil. They defend the right to kill babies for convenience, destroy the sanctity of marriage, hate America, continue to perpetrate racism through Affirmative Action etc, defend terrorists, constantly attack Christianity and any and all moral standards so they won't feel guilty while killing babies, sodomizing, or burning the flag.
posted by: fishman
March 29, 2008
9:20 pm
AlvinaL - you are talking about human law and all it affects is non - profit status. The church is bound by a higher calling then human law and if we must be myrted to speak the truth , so be it. It was illegal to speak out against communsim , yet JPII most certainly did.
posted by: AlvinaL
March 30, 2008
11:07 am
fishman,
I admire your zeal for the faith.
At this time we have a President and a majority of lawmakers and judges who don’t focus on taking away tax exemption privileges from the churches in our country. However a movement toward the left in leadership would certainly change our country. Supporting abortion rights is a clear warning signal.
It’s encouraging to read your posts and those of other parents with young children because your generation will sustain our country’s Christian heritage.
posted by: sainthenry
March 30, 2008
2:20 pm
fishman, The only reason we are at war is because Congress voted to go there. The President is not solely powerful enough to declare war so voting for whomever does not guarantee that the legislative body will concurr. This is not Nazi Germany and one man is not powerful enough to override the intelligence of enough people who will oppose him. If you really want to correct our nations problems, they must be solved in moral obedience behaviors that plague our nation. The Pope advises American Presidents as well as other nations so our part of the equation is not entirely in how we vote, moreso in how we pray and what do we pray for. Only God can change a man's heart and Spirit. Go ahead and vote for the person whom you sense will listen to the Pope Benedict XV1. If we can obtain such a President who listens to moral reasoning, then will our nation return to "One nation under God". George Bush is obviously mistrustful of Catholic faith and reason. Do you know which candidate would listen to the Pope?
King Henry 11 Holy Roman Emporer of Germany, Italy and Switzerland of the 10th Century: Praise to you Lord Jesus Christ and May God Bless Us All!
posted by: work in progress
March 31, 2008
9:11 pm
"Unfortunately, I must say that the majority of those Catholic's who support pro-abortion candidates are themselves pro-abortion."
I don't know how accurate this statement is, but here are some observations I've had. My mother-in-law (a Pennsylvania dem), defends her vote on what she would lose (or what she thinks she would lose) in terms of "stuff", like Medicare, social security, etc. She is definately opposed to abortion, but just hasn't been able to raise that issue high enough in her thinking to be repulsed by what her candidates have taken from other people. When pressed, she defaults to "I just won't vote for anyone". The other argument is "I know abortion is wrong, I would NEVER choose it for myself, but it IS legal, so how can I force my belief on others? These voters merrily pull the Dem lever, clear in their consciences that they are not pro-choice but in some perverted way are thankful that America's religious freedom continues to protect the legal status of abortion to those who want them. So, my point is there may be more Catholic Democrats who profess pro-life beliefs, but fail to connect the dots between Church moral teaching and voting for someone who will work toward preserving "choice".
As for our so-called Catholic politicians who are very publicly promoting abortion, embryonic stem cell research and homosexual marriage, I echo the question "where are their bishops?" They need to stand up and speak the truth.
"The Catholic Church frames the Christian life as one in which you must exercise virtue—not because virtue saves you, but because that's the way God's grace gets manifested." Dr. Francis J. Beckwith
posted by: sainthenry
April 1, 2008
1:46 pm
workinprogress: you wrote,"As for our so-called Catholic politicians who are very publicly promoting abortion, embryonic stem cell research and homosexual marriage, I echo the question "where are their bishops?" They need to stand up and speak the truth.
The Bishops are where they always were, at the Catholic Conference of Bishops, writing letters to politicians and meeting to define Catholic position papers defining the Catholic outlook on sin and suffering.
The problem is not with the Bishops, the problem is the narrow minded politicians and American Catholic's who do not have the courage to stand up for Catholic teaching. As Barrack Obama has stated so elequently, "Stand up for change"
If you wish to see the Kingdom of God on earth, do not promote democracy, promote the Kingdom of God on earth and listen to the Bishops. The Bishops are waiting for you at their conferences...and in your nearest Catholic church.
King Henry 11 Holy Roman Emporer of Germany, Italy and Switzerland of the 10th Century: Praise to you Lord Jesus Christ and May God Bless Us All!
posted by: work in progress
April 1, 2008
9:12 pm
But is it not the bishops who bear the responsibility for correcting error within their flock? We have a wonderful, holy, bishop in my home diocese. He has been very public about Catholic moral teaching on abortion and embryonic stem cell research. He supports his parish priests in withholding communion from politicians who are known for their voting records in support of abortion and embryonic stem cell research. He has been proactive in educating the Catholics in our diocese about embryonic stem cell research, the Church's teaching, and why we must (not should) stand firm against this practice. He has also made some changes in our churches to correct liturgical errors.
Is it not also bishops who have failed to castigate our "Catholic" colleges for their liberal practices that have helped to produce the "narrow minded politicians" of which you speak? As lay Catholics, we can, and should use our voice to vote and educate, but we don't choose bishops, and we don't pick the priests that are in our churches.
Sainthenry, perhaps I don't really understand the heirarchy of Church authority, but it certainly does seem to me that there have been (and still are) bishops who have done too little to maintain the faith in their diocese. Those "Catholics" who readily line up behind their favorite liberal "Catholic" politician--the ones who continue to push for "choice" in the womb, in our marriages, in our medical research--didn't just wake up yesterday and decide these were OK policies. These people are the fall-out of two generations of Catholics who wouldn't stand up for the Church.
We (Amerians) can't avoid the democratic process that is part of our republic. We remain "Under God", no matter how hard others try to remove God from the equation. We can use our voice to further the Kingdom of God here on earth, or we can sit back and let others chip away at our moral fiber. Jesus gave us the example of how his apostles were to shepherd and feed His flock. All I'm asking is for our earthly shepherds to lead us firmly away from the jaws of the wolves.
"The Catholic Church frames the Christian life as one in which you must exercise virtue—not because virtue saves you, but because that's the way God's grace gets manifested." Dr. Francis J. Beckwith
posted by: MREINER16
April 2, 2008
6:02 am
WIP- I think you raise very vaild points. If "old line" Dems continue to weigh the "pocket book" issues over the life issue, then it comes down to education from their local bishops and priests to help them understand that while the pocket book and other issue (the War, immigration, etc) are important, they simply don't have the same weight compared to life issues. If after getting and hopefully understanding the Church's teaching and position they still vote Democrat, then there is nothing left to do accept pray.
The issue is that when the Dems and Reps have their conventions this summer, it will be the Dem party that has planks in its platform, it official statement of beliefs, if you will, that support abortion, including partial-birth abortion, gay marriage, embryonic stem cell research. The Rep platforms will have statement apposing each of these issue. The Roman Catholic Church is already on record against these issue. So then I ask again, how can someone who calls themselves Catholic support a party that has a belief sytem as expressed through their party platform that is diametrically opposed to the beliefs of the Church and the laws of God?